Ask Lyle McDonald #7

by Lyle McDonald

Lyle McDonald is the author of the Ketogenic Diet as well as the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook and the Guide to Flexible Dieting. He has been interested in all aspects of human performance physiology since becoming involved in competitive sports as a teenager. Pursuing a degree in Physiological Sciences from UCLA, he has devoted nearly 20 years of his life to studying human physiology and the science, art and practice of human performance, muscle gain, fat loss and body recomposition.

Publication Date: November 1, 1998

Subject: No Fat Loss on CKD

Dear Lyle,

I am in quite a dilemma. I have tried the Body Opus diet to the T, but it seems s though after the initial ketogenic cycle I don't lose any more body fat. The first week I lose upwards of 8 lbs. After this though it is like I hit a brick all. No matter how many calories I lower the diet, I cannot lose any weight. I have gotten down to 1200 calories a day! I have also tried increasing my aerobics of 5 one hour sessions a week. What am I doing wrong? I get into ketosis easily he first week but it takes up to 3 days after the weekend carb-up to get back into it. If this isn't bad enough, I have now tried the Atkins diet. I am still having the same problem. After the initial week of being on it (which I do lose bout 8 lbs.) I just stop losing fat no matter how much I restrict the calories. I’m so confused. What is the problem? Am I just weird?

Answer:  Not at all. In fact it sounds like you're making a mistake that I have made, as have most people I know. You're restricting calories too much. Although it's counterintuitive as hell, as I have written repeatedly (and a CKD is no different) a caloric deficit which is too large tends to slow or eliminate fat loss in a lot of people. Too much cardio does the same thing. Basically if the body perceives too great a daily caloric deficit, it goes into starvation mode and fat loss stops. In my experience, the research I've read, the maximum allowable caloric deficit is 1000 cal/day. This includes caloric restriction AND cardio. So if you're doing 400 calories of aerobics/day, you can only reduce calories by 600 below maintenance. If you're doing something excessive like 600 cal of aerobics per day, you can only reduce calories by 400 below maintenance.

So the first thing you have to do is estimate maintenance calorie levels. An average person has a maintenance calorie level of 15 cal/lb. or so. So multiply current bodyweight by 15. For example, I weigh ~200 lbs. right now so my estimated maintenance is about 3000 cal/day.

Now figure out how much exercise you are doing. Let's say I'm burning 300 cal/day with aerobics. This means the most I can reduce calories is 700 below maintenance, which would be 2300 calories. Any lower and my body will fight back and slow metabolic rate.

So the first thing you should try is NOT reducing calories too far or doing too much aerobics.

One last suggestion (since the Atkins diet will not sustain weight training performance very long and you'll have to do a carb-up eventually) is to cut your carb-up back to 24 hours, instead of the recommended 48 hours in Bodyopus. This makes fat regain on the weekend much harder.

Finally, if none of this advice works, you may have to accept that a ketogenic diet just won't work for you. Although it's rare, some people just don't get results from a ketogenic or CKD, making a more traditional high-protein, mod-carb, mod-fat the better choice.

Subject: BodyOpus 12hr. carb-up?

Lyle,

As with all of the other participants in the BodyOpus diet, I want to lose fat. I firmly believe that Dan Duchaine has put together what is probably the most effective way to do so, but as with any diet it must be form fitted to the individual. I know that you have stressed this before when people complain that the diet isn't as effective for them as is for others. I've done some trial and error type of experimenting with the diet and I believe that I've made progress...but you see, I'm beginning to get a little impatient. I WANT TO LOSE THAT BODYFAT!!! I believe that a two week cycle works better for me than the typical 7 day cycle. The key word in that past sentence is better. I feel the problem with the two week cycle is that I lose a lot of weight during the two weeks, and I know that more of it than I would like is muscle.

Not necessarily. Assuming adequate protein intake (0.9 g/lb. or so), you shouldn't lose any muscle on a ketogenic diet.

The problem with the 7 day cycle is that I feel that I don't quite need the carb-up every weekend...I don't know how to explain it, but I want better fat loss and I know it works better for me the second way. Two weeks is just too long though, and I get pretty pissed when I lose hard earned muscle so here's my question:

If I follow the BodyOpus workout schedule and do the depletion workout on Friday of the first week do you think a twelve hour carb-up would be cause any anabolic response by Monday and Tuesdays workouts?

The best answer I can give is: It can't hurt. The one drawback to a ketogenic diet (that can cause muscle loss in the long run) is the inability to sustain high intensity exercise (along with the impact of glycogen depletion on protein utilization during exercise). So a 12 hour carb-up, while refilling muscle glycogen somewhat, can't possible hurt from the standpoint of sustaining exercise intensity.

Do you think I should possibly move those workouts to Saturday and Sunday and just do cardio all week until Friday's depletion? Do you think that this twelve hour carb-up idea is crazy?

Actually, no. Some variations like this have worked better for people I've talked to. I generally don't talk about them much because the simple fact is that most people won't go that long without carbs. If you can make it a full 10-14 days in ketosis, you might very well get better fat loss. But it's a moot point since most people who are carb addicts (like yours truly) won't do it. The problem with moving your workouts to Sat/Sun is what to do as a workout prior to your carb-up. Put differently, for a 14 day cycle, I'd probably recommend a training structure something like this:

Mon/Tue: normal weight training
Wed/Thu: cardio optional
Fri: full body tension workout (ver short, HIT), 12 hour carb-up
Sat/Sun: cardio or off
Mon/Tue: normal training
Wed/Thu: cardio
Fri: final depletion, 36 hour carb-up
Sat: carb-up
Sun: cardio only
Mon: start over

Oh yeah how much water should I drink? I read that keeping ketones in your body reduces muscle catabolism, but I seem to be thirsty more often than hungry.

Lots is the best answer I can give. You're not going to wash all the ketones out of your bloodstream but dehydration will kill performance.

That's a lot of weight gain but it's not unheard of. I've seen weight gains over the carb-up as little as 1 lb. and as much as 14 lbs. If you want maximal fat loss, you might also want to cut your carb-up back to 36 hours or less, it tends to work better for most people.

Subject: Your Book

When is your book on CKD going to be available?

C'mon, you knew I had to answer this one. Here's the CKD book update (and I apologize again for it taking so damn long). As I'm answering this question (October 1st), I'm finishing up the edits on the first draft. I'm also trying to find a publisher and decide if I want to self-publish or what. My sincere hope is this: by the time the issue of Mesomorphosis containing this question comes out, the book will be at the publisher/printers.

Subject: Glucose Disposal Agents

Dear Lyle ,

First of all, I'd like to thank you for sharing so much experience and knowledge with all of us interested in the CKD methodology!! I'll be quick here...........

I live in Canada, so vanadyl is hard to come by and expensive, alpha-lipoic acid is easy to get but WAY to expensive, so I'm wondering about potential alternatives. In BodyOpus, Duchaine remarks that cinnamon and brewers' yeast are both potent glucose disposal agents( I'm assuming because of the chromium content ).Do you agree that these could be used in place of vanadyl and ALA for the 'income impaired'? If so, in what forms, dosages, and frequencies, would they be effective in (for both speeding up descent into ketosis and the carb-up)? A reply from you, at any time, would be greatly appreciated!

Yes they can be used but I doubt they will be hugely effective. To be honest, with the exception of lipoic acid, most of the glucose disposal agents haven't really done much in the real world. And to be even more honest, I'm not convinced they are hugely necessary anyhow, especially in terms of getting into ketosis faster. If you follow the guidelines I gave in my article on training and the CKD (recap: last carb meal at 6pm, do 45-60' of low intensity cardio the first morning of the lowcarb week), you should be able to get into ketosis quickly anyhow.

With regards to the carb-up, since most of the glucose disposal agents have proven fairly useless in real life, and since ALA is so damn expensive, one final option (that I have found to be effective for improving the carb-up) is Citrimax (aka Hydroxycitric acid). HCA is supposed to block conversion of carbs to fat in the liver. While it's debatable whether this happens to a great degree in humans or not, HCA definitely improves my carb-ups (honestly about the same scale as Phenformin which I have played around with). I get better glycogen storage and less spillover to fat cells. And it's fairly inexpensive. Typical doses are 750-1000 mg/dose taken thrice daily. And you should take HCA 30' before your meals.

Subject: A question or two concerning dieting and Bodyopus

Having read some of your articles on body opus diet and your 20 week journal I feel you may be able to supply me with some answers. I am a 27yrs old female who trains 6 days a week ( one body part a day followed by 30 minutes of cardio) and had until recently followed a low fat diet, I am not necessarily interested in bodybuilding competitions at this point in my life but I thoroughly enjoy weight lifting and being in control of my body. Recently I have been considering several of the low carb diets and wonder if the body opus is strictly for male bodybuilder?

Nope, not at all. In fact, low (or just lowered) carb diets seem to work somewhat better for women than for men. The reason is this: some research has found that women process fuel differently during (aerobic) exercise than men do. Counter-intiutively, women tend to use more fat and less carbs during aerobic exercise than men do. So, you ask, why do women have more trouble losing bodyfat. My *guess* is this: take a woman who's doing just aerobics and eating a high carb diet. During her aerobics, she's burning mainly fat, and little glycogen. Which means that incoming carbohydrates have nowhere to go since muscle glycogen is full. So the excess carbs get stored as fat. Now take those excess carbs out of the diet, and fat loss starts happening. Incidentally, women who weight train (which always depletes glycogen) tend to do much better with high carb diets for the same reason.

Additionally, for some unknown reason, lowered carbs diets tend to help women get rid of lower body fat (i.e. hips and thighs) better than high carb diets.

Also, is it ( the BodyOpus) a diet in the sense you do it for a while and stop or can the BodyOpus be considered a lifestyle eating and training plan?

I personally don't think Bodyopus should be used as a lifetime (although my training partner has been on it for almost 4 years now, but he's a little but nuts). There are simply too many unknowns in terms of health effects, etc. In this sense, Bodyopus' best use is either for a contest, or for a specific event, or just to get bodyfat down to a lower level, where you will maintain with a different diet. My personal experience is that it's easier for me to stay leaner having gotten my bodyfat down lower. That is, my time on Bodyopus so many years ago (dropping from 15 to 8% bodyfat) has made it easier for me to stay nearer the low end of that range (generally 8-10%). Whether this has reset my fat point or something else I have no idea. If nothing else, doing Bodyopus got rid of some of my carb cravings.

Furthermore, if the Bodyopus is something a normal person can follow, does having hypothyroidism put up a red flag, I take Synthroid daily.

Man, what's up with all of these hypothyroid bodybuilders (this is like the 4th question I've gotten)? I've looked and looked through my papers and can't find any reason why someone who is hypothyroid can't use Bodyopus. It's true that lowcarb diets do affect thyroid conversion in the liver but I don't see how this will be any different for someone with normal T4 levels vs. someone supplementing with Synthroid (synthetic T4). That is, if you looked at blood levels of T4 for a euthyroid individual it should look the same as someone using replacement doses of Synthroid. I would expect the conversion of T4 -> T3 in the lier to be similarly affected.

Subject: Bodyopus and Carb Intake

Dear Lyle,

You said in your Bodyopus diaries that you kept your carbs as close to zero as possible during the week days because you felt the extra carbs might pull you out of ketosis. How come the Anabolic Diet by Dr. Mauro DiPasquale says you can have a max of 30 grams a day? Doesn't the Protein Power allow you to have a certain number of carbs a day also? If having this amount of carbs a day can pull you out of ketosis, wouldn't that ruin the effects of the diet? If so, why do they say you can have that amount of carbs?

My reasons for trying to get as few carb grams during the lowcarb week is related to a few things:

1. I am a major carb addict. If I get the taste of carbs, I'm a goner, and I will want/eat more. So I have to keep carbs limited as much as possible to make the diet work. I figure I can have whatever carbs I want during the carb-up, so avoiding them during the week is no big deal.

2. Since people who use a CKD (as opposed to someone on Atkins or Protein Power) only have 5 days to be in ketosis, you want to establish ketosis as quickly as possible. This means that carbs have to be limited as much as possible. On a diet like PP or Atkins where you weren't cycling in and out of ketosis every week, it wouldn't be as critical.

To be honest, any diet with less than 100 grams of carbs will cause ketosis to develop to some degree. However, it would be rare to see urinary ketones with such a high carb intake, you'd need a blood test to pick them up. So keeping carbs lower allows you to show urinary ketones which, although it has little physiological impact, does let you know that the diet is working.

I bought the Anabolic Diet and it doesn't even mention ketosis. I only learned about ketosis from your Bodyopus diaries.

Actually DiPasquale mentions ketones one place, but very obliquely. For him, ketones are the main goal of the AD. To a point I agree, in that ketosis isn't as magical as everybody thinks in terms of fat loss. However, the presence of ketones is most definitely protein sparing. For that reason alone, it's nice to see the presence of urinary ketones.

Thanks for posting your Bodyopus diaries, they helped me a lot. It was nice to hear that someone else was going through the same stuff I was. If I even mention the diet where I live people look at me like I'm an idiot when I explain it.

Subject: Jay Robb's Fat Burning Diet

Hi Lyle, How are you?

Oh, can't complain I guess.

It's been awhile since I wrote you on Cyber Pump. Do you know anything about the Fat burning diet be Jay Robb and what is thoughts. I want to try it.. until I see your book at least. I heard you might have something similar where you do low crabs and then carb load after work outs...I can't seem to loss while I eat a mixed diet. Help! I’m 45 215 and 23% BF..kind of pudgy still.. I can maintain on 2800 due to non strenuous job demands...that’s 2800 without any excerise. Thanks Steve...

Answer: I have read the older version of Jay Robb's diet and I don't know that it's any better or any worse than the other lowcarb diet plans. That is, whether you do 6 days lowcarb and one long carb-up or just do a smaller carb-up after each workout, but do lowcarb the rest of the time, the end result in the long run will probably be the same. Me personally, I would have trouble doing a small carb-load every day, but only because I'm a bit of a carb-addict. When I get the taste of carbs, I want more and more and more. That's why CKD works for me, it fits me psychologically as much as physiologically. So if you can do the Jay Robb plan AND keep calories under control, it will probably work as well as a more extreme plan like CKD. If you find that the daily carb-load causes you to over-consume calories, it's not a good plan.

Subject: Adipokinetix -Fat Burner Stack?

Hello, I’ve just read an interesting article on Adipokinetix, a thermogenic fat burner . I was wondering, can I use Adipokinetix in a stack, trying to create the most potent fat burning stack? If yes, what other supplements do you recommend to create such a stack?

Ok, for those who don’t know, Adipokinetix (from Syntrax) is a combination of phenylpropanolamine (PPA) and yohimbe. PPA is usually found in Dexatrim and products like that and is a basic appetite suppressant. It also has thermogenic properties like ephedrine. Yohimbe is an alpha-2 antagonist (and also raises levels of adrenaline and noradrenaline) which helps to mobilize 'stubborn bodyfat'. So it's not a bad combo.

However Adipokinetix has one critical flaw (but it's really not Syntrax's fault), the level of yohimbe is far too low. According to the research, the optimal effective dose of yohimbe is 0.2 mg/kg. For someone weighing 100 kg (about 220 lbs.), this means that 20 mg is required orally. Unfortunately you can only legally include 3 mg (actually 2.9 mg) in products which is why Adipokinetix only has 2.9 mg included. to be honest, stacking Dexatrim (or fast acting PPA if you can find it) with something like Yohimbe fuel would be more effective since you could get the optimal dose of each.

As to other things you could add, let me first say that yohimbe is very potent, and negative side effects (esp. cardiovascular) are not uncommon. So be very careful about randomly stacking things with any yohimbe products. Losing fat isn't worth having a stroke. Additionally, you should always start with a low dose of yohimbe when you first try it, to assess your response. Some people get freaky heart rate, blood pressure responses from even small doses of yohimbe. If after a few days, these responses persist, accept that yohimbe is not a good choice for you and use something else. If your response to yohimbe is not problematic, you can gradually adjust the dose upwards to the optimal dose.

So, other candidates would include:

Caffeine: which acts on phosphodiesterase to avoid the phosphorylation of cAMP and might potentiates the combo of PPA and yohimbe. However be aware that PPA tends to magnify the effects of caffeine. So any side effects of caffeine will be worse if you take PPA at the same time.

L-tyrosine: an amino acid involved in the synthesis of the catecholamines.

Aspirin?: I don't know offhand if the thermogenic effects of PPA is affected by the prostaglandin system or adenosine (both of which aspirin affect). If so, aspirin might be a useful addition. If not, it won't.

Things not to take with PPA and yohimbe:

Ephedrine: well, duh. Both PPA and ephedrine are major stimulants, combining the two would not be a good idea

Clen: same thing as for ephedrine

Subject: Health aspects of CKD

Hello Lyle and greetings from Finland!

Wow I'm getting international email now.

First I must thank you for the information you've given on Mesomorphosis.com. I'm convinced that CKD is the most effective way of fat loss while keeping the muscle at least for naturals. I'm not sure if the abovementioned subject has been handled by you somewhere sometime, I still would like to get answers. Feel free to change my questions to more correct way etc. as long as the main aspects are highlighted.

I recall that Mauro di Pasquale at least sometime stated that high fat - no carb - diet has no negative effects on cholesterol etc. When insulin is not present, the bad fats can't do their harm ? In his Anabolic Diet saturated and even processed fats as sausages etc. are recommended. So, here is my question : Has there been any studies of CKDs effects on blood lipids, cholesterol etc. ?

For the record, with the exception of two limited studies, there is no human data on the CKD/anabolic diet. There is however lots of data on ketogenic diet, and on carb-ups. CKD's simply represent the attempt to stick them together. But the effects (health or otherwise) of such a combination are totally unknown.

Now with regards to blood cholesterol and ketogenic diets, the results are highly variable. The general trend is this: if you lose fat/weight on a ketogenic diet, cholesterol *tends* to go down (but this is not universal). If you gain fat/weight on a ketogenic diet, blood cholesterol *tends* to go up (again, not universal). I think this makes a good argument for only using CKD's for fat loss, and not for mass gain. This should minimize the impact of a high fat intake on blood lipid levels. Additionally, dieters should monitor their blood lipid levels. Some individuals show a negative response to ketogenic diets in terms of blood lipid profile, even if they lose fat/weight.

Very. In fact, a long term adaptation to the state of ketosis is a decrease in insulin sensitivity. The enzymes and systems responsible for carb oxidation and storage tend to downregulate over time on a ketogenic diet.

The easiest solution with regards to the carb-up though is to just avoid saturated fats on the day of the carb-up. So if your carb-up is on Friday evening, try to emphasize unsaturated/fish oils during that day to minimize negative effects on insulin sensitivity.

Carb loading after -depletion gives a hyperinsulemia effect and this way cell-volumizing effect, which promotes anabolism. Could bad fats decrease the power of weekends carb-up?

Again, possible. Without any research I can only speculate.

The practical side: Is CKD healthy in the long term and how could you do it in the healthiest possible way?

Once again, there is zero long term data so neither I nor anyone else is in the position to say that it is safe in the long-term. I think the CKD should be used for limited periods of time (say 6-8 weeks) to reduce bodyfat, perhaps several times per year. But I do not think it should be followed indefinitely, there are just too many questions about long term effects. AS to how to make it as healthy as possible, I would encourage daily intake of healthy fats (unsaturated and fish oils), a fiber supplement, vitamin and mineral supplements (especially calcium, sodium, potassium, and magnesium) and making healthy food choices during the carb-up to maximize nutrient intake that can not be gotten from a pill (i.e. phytonutrients found in fruits and vegetables).

What fats would be the best, maybe monounsaturated (olive oil)? Polyunsaturated are more easily destroyed by oxygen? Should high antioxidant intake be beneficial?

I think a high anti-oxidant intake is a good idea on any diet. Whether it's more or less necessary on a ketogenic diet is anyone's guess.

I've used pretty much 50-25-25 -split, about half from olive oil and egg yolks- and about equally(25-25) from flax+fish-department compared to bad fats (meat, cheese etc.) Keep on the good work.

Thanks for an excellent question.

Subject: Ephedrine and Ritalin

I am a female college student that took Xenadrine this summer. I am very athletic and have a regular workout schedule. I loved the results of Xenadrine; however, I am prescribed Ritalin during the academic year. I was told that Ritalin and ephedrine are a bad combo. Is it true? If it is, could you please suggest something that will give me similar results (an increase in energy and weight loss). Thanks for your time.

Although I couldn't get a for sure answer on this one (for lack of any specific data), the general response I got (one from a guy I know who is a pharmaceutical whiz, the other who is a psychologist who has experience with such drugs) is that ephedrine (and probably any central nervous system stimulant) should not be combined with Ritalin (which is also a stimulant). The potential effects of combining two potent stimulants are too serious for it to be a good idea. Unfortunately, this means that any of the other energy increasing/fat burning supplements are also out because they all work through stimulating the nervous system.

The only non-stimulant 'fat burners' I can think of are Citrimax (hydroxycitric acid), and I'm not convinced that it's going to be hugely effective anyhow ; and pyruvate, which has been problematic because the effective dose is too high. It's effects are fairly small anyhow.

My sources also mentioned that the stimulant effects of Ritalin *might* have similar effects to ephedrine, but neither were sure.

Subject: DNP and Creatine

Does creatine diminish the fat burning potential of DNP? Even though DNP mainly works in Type I muscle fibers and creatine works in Type II fibers, does the uncoupled mitochondria draw off ATP created from the creatine instead of using the less efficient process of using fat for fuel to produce its own ATP in the mitochondria?

Hmm, interesting question. My guess is that DNP isn't going to have a major effect on creatine or vice versa. Creatine works primarily by increasing levels of intramuscular creatine phosphate (CP, which is just creatine attached to a high-energy phosphate molecule). When ATP is used by the muscle, CP donates it's phosphate molecule to resynthesis ATP. It looks like this:

ATP -> ADP + Pi + energy

ADP + CP -> ATP + C

All of this occurs outside of the mitochondria.

By contrast, DNP works by blocking oxidative phosphorylation in the mitochondria, forcing free fatty acids to be broken down in a vain attempt to generate ATP. So I don't think DNP and creatine will interact to any great degree.

Subject: Questions about DNP

You've said that DNP doesn't work on a low-carb diet, and that it makes you crave carbs. So does that mean it's not effective on a low-carb diet or that it makes the low-carb diet hard?

The latter. Of course DNP has the same metabolic effects on a low carb vs. normal diet. It's just that I couldn't stay on a lowcarb diet to save my life while taking DNP. And a high fat intake on a ketogenic diet plus carbs is a really bad idea.

Is 4mg per pound of bodyweight the correct dosage for DNP?

No. The studies used 3-5 mg/kilogram (divide bodyweight in lbs. by 2.2) of lean body mass. 4 mg/pound is almost 9 mg/kg. You wouldn't die at that dosage but you'd be really miserable.

How long would a dosage of DNP last? I've heard that you should take it in the evening or before bed to minimize the suffering. So do the effects last all night and throughout the next day?

DNP stays in your system a good 36 hours or so. So honestly whether you take it morning or night, you're going to be miserable. I could probably make a case for dosing DNP every 36 hours, instead of every 24. If you take a dose of DNP every 24 hours, there is a time period of 12 hours where you have the remainder of the first dose still in your system, meaning you have a higher effective dose active.

Obviously you can tell I'm thinking about buying some. I started a low-carb diet about 12 weeks ago. My body fat was about 20% (mainly because I never followed any type of diet), and now its about 10-11%. I'm really getting sick of this dieting crap, and want to start packing on the beef again. To get down to 5-6% bodyfat from where I am now will take forever. That’s at least 6 to 8 weeks of more dieting.

In your opinion, do you think its worth taking DNP? Yes, I know its dangerous, and that it is legal to buy and illegal to consume. Putting all that aside, if it were legal would to take it again?

Actually, DNP is totally legal, it's just not approved for human use and most people would think you were nuts if you told them you were going to eat it (though I don't think it illegal to do so). I don't know if I'd use DNP again. I think it's biggest use is for pre-contest dieting or for treatment of just morbid obesity where you have to take weight off as quickly as possible but where diet or exercise aren't going to get it done fast enough. Like any dieting compound, the effects of DNP are only there as long as you're taking it. So you may find it difficult to maintain 6-8% bodyfat when you come off. Of course, since your diet is together, you might not.