December 1997
MESO-Rx: What is your current "receptor theory"?
And what implications does this have for cycling
and tapering?
Dan: As much as I find Bill Roberts entertaining
and, in my newsletter, I talk about how much research
- mostly in vitro studies - shows an up-regulation
of steroid receptors when there are high dosages
of steroids around, I don't think it captures the
whole picture because you can put a whole lot of
steroids in a person and without training they can
have very little muscle growth. You'll see a lot
of muscle growth when there is training involved.
As much as Bill is talking about up-regulation of
steroid receptors, he has really neglected the whole
up-regulation with training. So, I really don't
have an answer for that. Also, we really never answered
the question as to why the first time steroid user
does so spectacularly well on very low dosages and
that's never to be repeated. I don't know, but it
will be interesting to see… I've been pretty much
off steroids for many, many years because of my
testing arrangements with the government. And in
a few more months I will have the opportunity to
use steroids again. It will be interesting if I
get the kind of growth I got from the first time
I used Dianabol in my twenties. Of course,
I'm an older guy, so probably not.
MESO-Rx: What is the "Deca dilemma"?
Dan: If Bill Roberts and others are to
be believed, Deca Durabolin actually has
a higher attraction to steroid receptors. I mean
if you have equal amount of Deca Durabolin
and testosterone, it would be easier for Deca
Durabolin to latch onto the receptor. Now what
actually happens we found from anecdotal and rat
studies that even though there is more available
to the receptors it is half as anabolic. So, that
is the dilemma: Why is it only half as anabolic
when there is probably more of it at the receptors?
It must be that it is doing something to the receptors
that testosterone is but Deca isn't or testosterone
might be doing something outside the receptor. I
don't know. I think there is some kind of anabolic
reaction outside the receptor. What it is we don't
know. I mean there is a whole bunch of new things.
It might be that it influences the myostatin protein
that was recently introduced, or maybe testosterone
does a better job of up-regulating the receptor
or something like that; it might be something completely
inside where you might have more of a response of
fibroblast growth factor in response to muscle cell
membrane-wounding from training. It could be any
of those. But because steroid subjects are not really
marketable as of late, in my magazine writing I
have not really pursued that avenue too much but
I will get around to reading the research if there
is an answer to be found. The odd thing is that
as much as we look to the research, a scientist
has never really made one big bodybuilder; I mean
there is no doctor or scientist that has said this
is how to grow a human being big, bigger than all
these bodybuilders who don't know what they're doing.
They've never done that, so I'm not sure we can
look to answer this?
MESO-Rx: What advice would you give to people
looking to take advantage of the greater anabolic
activity of testosterone while avoiding side effects?
Would you recommend the use of any accessory drugs?
Dan: What happens is people read all these
things about steroids and they are usually written
by people who have never used steroids before, and
they're usually anti-steroid, and they just assume…
I always say never assume you have the problem until
you have the problem. As much as I've encountered
high amounts of testosterone causing hair loss,
and acne, and mood changes… However, the average,
pedestrian steroid user, who is not going to be
using it months and months at a time and they are
only thinking about a cycle of steroids perhaps
6-8 weeks 1 or 2 times a year and not necessarily
year after year after year, maybe none of these
side effects will ever happen. Obviously, if for
some reason, parents - the father and grandfather
- show marked hair loss at a very young age or if
the individual really had some kind of gyno problem
or acne in high school, that might be an indicator
of potential problems. Then again, it could be that
a cycle of 500-600mg of testosterone for 6-8 weeks
would hardly do anything bad.
The thing is you see a lot of pro bodybuilders
use a lot of testosterone and it is rare that you
see them losing their hair. I mean some do but just
as many don't as do. Many of the top bodybuilders
rarely show any acne. So go figure.
Some people never lose their hair, but if you
are concerned about it , for example, at my age,
with my tenuous hair state, I really wouldn't use
a lot of testosterone, I would rather use Deca
Durabolin. The problem is that the accessory
drugs, whether it be Cytadren or Arimidex
for the estrogen or Proscar, well, I could
probably find them but not everyone in the country
could find these accessory drugs and it's just an
added expense. Currently, on the black market,
Deca Durabolin is fairly well priced. However,
it's not like Deca is so expensive, you could use
testosterone and the accessory drugs and come out
ahead. No.
MESO-Rx: Is progesterone used in the competitive
bodybuilders' drug arsenal? If so, under what conditions
would it be beneficial?
Dan: Years ago when they had Trophobolene,
that was testosterone with progesterone… I'm not
quite sure that they used it to make the testosterone
more anabolic. Progesterone does have the ability
to stimulate your appetite and can deposit triglycerides
in the muscle and increase the amount of intramuscular
fat. Both of which, I think, would be beneficial
for bodybuilders provided you are not getting that
pot belly look. I've known a few people using that
combination and they've never had a potbelly, so
I don't know.
As to whether it would be beneficial for these
testosterone precursors…I mean it is true that women
do a better job of converting androstenedione into
testosterone because they have more of that converting
enzyme. And the reason is progesterone - because
it down-regulates estrogen by up-regulating that
enzyme. Yes, probably if you could find a very short
acting oral progesterone that would affect these
liver enzymes and rapidly dissipate. But it is by
its nature, through a variety of mechanisms, catabolic
long term in the human body. So you would want to
find… you wouldn't want to use an injectable form
of progesterone, but perhaps the creams might be
worthwhile.
MESO-Rx: You have done a lot of work with
DNP. What is DNP? How does it work?
Dan: Forty percent of your energy expenditure
in your body…40% of the calories that you consume
everyday is burned up as non-essential heat. Sixty
percent of the energy is needed for metabolic processes,
and to keep the cells alive and the processes involved.
Forty percent is futile heat energy: there is no
work being done, there is no ATP being used or produced
for work. In humans, that is controlled by uncoupling
proteins in light fat and skeletal muscle. UCPs,
2's and 3's, mediated by mostly beta-4 receptors
in skeletal muscles and light fat. Dinitrophenol
is an industrial chemical that has direct action
on the heat production action in the mitochondria
without any kind of receptor… it bypasses any kind
of receptor or uncoupling protein. It pretty much
throws protons off fatty acids and it turns into
heat rather than ATP. It was a very popular weight
loss drug in the 40s in this country but in that
very unregulated time there were a lot of mis-prescribing
and misuse of it and a high incidence of cataracts
in women. And so it was banned from interstate transport
although a doctor in almost every state could still
prescribe it as long as they made the DNP within
the state.
MESO-Rx: What causes the cataracts? What other
problems occur?
Dan: Depletion of antioxidants in the
eyeball specifically glutathione and Vitamin C.
I always suspected it was the Vitamin C because
the early research pointed out there was a depletion
of Vitamin C in the cells, especially in the eyeball.
Just recently, a couple of weeks ago, most newspapers
reported a study that suggested supplemental Vitamin
C could help avoid most cataracts.
Not everybody stays on it forever because you
feel so miserable on it. I think most of the people
having trouble with DNP don't understand it. There
was a misunderstanding of how DNP worked as opposed
to other thermogenic agents in that we couldn't
really rely on measured body temperature to adjust
the dosage. The human body can withstand a moderate
fever, the body temperature can go well over a hundred
degrees and you are kind of uncomfortable but you
live, but it is not insufferable high. Because DNP
allows the dilation of skin cells so that a lot
of the heat is being radiated off, your body temperature
is very, very high even though the mouth thermometer
is really not showing a tremendous rise in body
temperature. A 30 percent rise above normal, and
your body temperature is only about 99.2 degrees.
The hazard is that just because you have been able
to tolerate ephedrine or yohimbe or clenbuterol
in the past, temperatures of like a hundred or so,
you should not try to get you body temperature that
high on DNP because once it is that high you are
well over double the metabolic rate and many of
your cells are depleted of the energy source and
things can get dangerous at that point.
MESO-Rx: You have recommended the use of insulin
to enhance the efficacy of DNP use in bodybuilders…
Dan: It is not so much my idea but a research
scientist out of the 30s that recommended it. Protein
synthesis stops on DNP. Luckily for most sedentary
people the research has not really shown a loss
of muscle mass although it would stop testosterone
production out of the gonads and might interfere
with the transference of testosterone in the cells.
However, they did show a study where by supplementing
the DNP with growth hormone and insulin, they re-established
protein synthesis. However, I must tell you about
half of the heat producing ability of DNP comes
from glucose being burned as heat and the other
is fatty acids; so, if you put more glucose in your
cells with insulin, you will become more uncomfortable
because there will be more heat put off. We've done
it both ways… we've done DNP with no insulin and
those with it, and they were better off with it.
We didn't need much, maybe once a day with short-acting
stuff.
MESO-Rx: Any other compounds that work through
a protein uncoupling mechanism?
Dan: Some fatty acids, some of the polyunsaturated
fatty acids would do it.
Flax oil would do it, to a point, that's why
you don't really get too fat with
flax oil. Progesterone has an uncoupling effect
but you have to be careful because at the same time
it makes you fat. It kind of balances things out.
Although your body temperature goes up, there is
more fatty acids being placed in the fat cells and
the muscle cells. There were a few studies where
they purified some specific insect thoraxes, and
they found an uncoupling effect there, although
I don't think you'll see that come to the market
soon. Although it would probably be legal to do
that. Thermogenic bug guts!
MESO-Rx: What about any naturally occurring
herbal compounds? I seem to recall you mentioning
one in your 'Ask the Guru' column.
Dan: I don't know what it is yet. It's
a Latin herbal compound. I pursued it for a few
days and couldn't get an answer so I moved on to
something else. I don't know what it is yet but
I imagine there is something there. Some kind of
defense mechanism to keep animals away from it.
One of those things in nature…some plants are attractive
to be eaten to spread the seeds through transport
with animals, and other things are just the opposite
- to keep them away from plants. I'll keep it in
mind and try to find an answer.
MESO-Rx: You have a lot of experience working
with female bodybuilders. Do you feel anabolic steroids
are necessary to develop a championship physique
today in female bodybuilding and fitness competition?
Dan: Once they have their foundation…
Well, it depends, most of the female bodybuilders
that win are 150lbs and under so they're not terribly
big. And quite frankly, people will tell you once
you have a foundation, and that's not a lot of muscle,
you shouldn't need a whole bunch of muscle to keep
it up, you don't even have to train that hard to
keep it up. I mean muscle mass does go away with
dieting, so if these females tend to get very heavy
in the off season and diet for long spans of time
to get in shape, yeah, they're going to sacrifice
muscle to lose all that fat. Unless they get so
damn fat in the off season, they shouldn't have
to use much of anything to maintain muscle mass.
Some female bodybuilders objectively should be female
bodybuilders because they pretty much look that
way before they train. I remember the first few
contests, even national ones, that Carla Dunlap
entered and won, all she did was swim; she rarely
worked out in the gym. She had the basic muscle
structure and muscle bellies and all she had to
do was add some muscularity to it. Then there are
other women who shouldn't be female bodybuilders
because they have to try so hard at everything just
to get the muscle on. Those kind of people need
the drugs and more than probably should be used
in female bodybuilders and they probably shouldn't
be in the sport. But whom am I to say that? They
need to get out of it. From a business standpoint
there's not much money in the sport. I guess you
have to be mentally maladjusted to pursue it. It
becomes too hard after being stubborn about.
MESO-Rx: Do you think DNP, ipriflavone, and
insulin are possible alternatives to steroids?
Dan: A few women have used DNP. I'm afraid
to say that a lot of women did suffer on DNP because
they were using too much more than necessary. I
say that because they get in shape in such a fast
time, they're ready 3 or 4 weeks before the contest
and they really suffer to get there because their
body temperature is so elevated. Now looking back,
we could have used ½ maybe 1/3 the dosage and took
our time so that we peaked right on time rather
than way ahead of time.
Ipriflavone from Italy, the other from Hungary…As
much as I begged people to get it in the country,
it has never shown up. I've never seen one box of
that stuff being used. I don't know why. Usually,
I have a pretty good track record of recommending
something and suddenly it shows up here, but that
never made it over here.
MESO-Rx: What are your recommendations for
reducing lower body fat distribution?
Dan: You can use a number of things. Yeah,
there is definitely a yohimbe injection they use
as some kind of attempt to lose fat in the thighs
….of course, it is water-based so it will probably
dissipate out of fat but it is probably more potent
than a topical cream, but that will work too. ACE
inhibitors along with the yohimbe…the thing is that
whenever you have a foreign product in your body,
an antagonist, whether it be an estrogen antagonist
or an alpha-2 antagonist, the body likes to not
accept that, and the body usually tries to up-regulate
those receptors in response. So you have to fight
that up-regulation; the only two ways I know of
down-regulating alpha-2 receptors are to use an
ACE inhibitor or you can also use a whole bunch
of clenbuterol because when you down-regulate a
beta-2 receptor, the alpha receptors down-regulate
also.
MESO-Rx: What is the future of natural testosterone
boosters, such as androstenedione and androstenediol?
Dan: I'm sure that after a while the FDA
will try to find a way to get it off the market.
Just last week the IOC placed androstenedione on
the banned list. I think it is really the future.
I think it is the only thing the will really advance
natural bodybuilding because otherwise the only
people who will do well in natural bodybuilding
are black guys who have naturally great genetics.
The thing is that steroids, all things being equal,
if you have the same amount of money, gives you
a pretty much level playing field, because anyone
can get the steroid and work on it. When you get
to natural bodybuilding, your advantage is kind
of set with your parents. Granted, there are a whole
lot of tricks to get your testosterone elevated
but even so you'll have to use every one of them.
MESO-Rx: How can these be utilized to their
fullest potential? Can these supplements be improved
on?
Dan: Intensify the enzyme, somehow, that
would be one thing. Bypass the oral route, make
an injection of it or a nasal spray of it.
MESO-Rx: Is there a way to increase the enzymes
involved in their conversion to testosterone?
Dan: I'm looking into that right now.
There are herbal compounds that increase the conversion.
But the tricky thing is if you use too much of
Forskolin, the herbal compound, you will
actually have the opposite effect because Forskolin
although it increases cyclic AMP, too much will
inhibit the glucose transport system necessary to
get androstenedione into testosterone and then you'll
have less than before. Progesterone, short term
and maybe a couple of other things. We don't really
know them yet but we will.
MESO-Rx: Do you think the FDA is going to
regulate any of these testosterone precursors any
time soon?
Dan: Well somebody has already. Schwartz
Labs mentioned that their norandrostenedione is
being held in customs. The thing is the nor- version
is probably grandfathered in because all you have
to do is pull some of these orchic extracts, you
know like bull and horse testicles, off the shelves,
which have been around for decades, and you would
have an analysis of the androgens and you would
find norandrostenedione in there, which there are
actually. And they would be allowed from the grandfather
clause. For example, melatonin, which is a hormone
and technically shouldn't be on the market, was
grandfathered in because it was a powerful hormone,
a drug, that was on the shelves before the dietary
supplement act but they are not going to pull it
now. And we could use that same argument…it's just
a matter of using a FDA private attorney but none
of the big companies are really selling that product
so no one is going to do it.
MESO-Rx: There is considerable debate as to
whether androstenedione and related compounds are
really 'natural'. What is your feeling on this issue?
Dan: Yes, but the thing is that's a moral
judgment. You have to decide what is going to be
allowed as natural because many natural supplements
right now are drugs. Yohimbe, ephedrine are not
necessary for life. They're not nutrients. They're
not even micronutrients. They're drugs! Let's say
for example, yohimbe under 5mg is legal over 5mg
it's prescription. So is it allowed or not? Let's
say for example, the FDA somehow got their way and
made ephedrine a controlled substance, a prescription
drug. Suddenly that would be on the banned list.
For example, ephedrine is on the [IOC] banned list,
yohimbe is on the banned list. Why would they allow
it in natural bodybuilding contests? I mean if you
really want to go after everything, use the whole
banned list. But if that happens, you'll have some
piss poor looking bodybuilders, fat and small, unless
you have a few, 2 or 3 guys in the country that
look good without anything. So, my feeling is… plus
the fact that many things that are allowed in this
country, for example, creatine is allowed in this
country and it's not on the banned list and it's
considered part of the natural bodybuilder's armada,
but that's an unfair advantage because in Canada,
creatine is a prescription drug and they don't allow
it in the country. That's not really fair. So, actually
if you have a Canadian natural bodybuilder using
creatine, he would be breaking federal laws in Canada
using creatine. You just have to figure out what's
legal. I think you should do the broadest possible
interpreting and that would be what's legal in America
because if we just allowed what's legal in Germany,
there would be hardly anything we could use.
MESO-Rx: Synthol. Bodybuilders have been injecting
oil-based steroids into their bodies for years.
Why are the fatty acids in Synthol encapsulated
but not other types of fatty acids? What makes Synthol
special?
Dan: The interesting thing is that MCTs
have been around a long time. Why is it nobody figured
out how to do that years ago? It's so simple inject
Parillo's CapTri, stick it in your arm, and your
arm is bigger. Who would have thought? It's so bizarre,
you know, plenty of us inject oily steroids into
muscles and they don't swell up forever. I don't
know what it is - I guess I haven't asked the right
person as to why it is staying around. It's kind
of interesting - most of the Synthol being sold
in this country are counterfeits made in this country.
And even the counterfeits work exactly the same.
MESO-Rx: Any negative long-term consequences?
Dan: We'll find out - who knows? Luckily
it only seems to last about 6 months. I guess there's
enough people out there that have been using it
because it's been around on the continent for a
long time now. No one's complained about it or had
problems. So far, so good.
MESO-Rx: A lot of bodybuilders have been using
Reforvit but many are still dubious of
the claim that it is more effective orally than
intramuscularly. How can a different route of administration
make such a difference in its efficacy?
Dan: It was pretty much anecdotal
at first. Back in the early 80s, we had the first
versions of injectable Dianabol. In the
veterinarian market of Mexico, we found these little
yellow boxes of injectable Dianabol. We
went to the market with International Pharmaceuticals;
it was the first big product for that company to
make it in America. We just assumed since it was
injected it would bypass the liver and be much more
potent but people were disappointed that a cc a
day wasn't any better and perhaps worse than 5 tablets
a day. Anecdotally, everyone has always wanted to
stack an oral with an injectable. We always knew
they had more growth on it. So, if you want to accept
that anecdotal story as true, now you have to figure
out why that might be. The only thing we can think
of is that a lot of oral steroids passing through
the liver the first time through might be causing
some kind of IGF-1 or growth hormone or fibroblast
growth factor being released out of the liver into
the blood stream. That's the only the thing I can
think of.
MESO-Rx: Are any medical researchers (or renegade
researchers) working on administering testosterone
via a cyclodextrin-based nasal spray?
Dan: We know how to do it. Researchers
have done it already. I read that in some research
that Michael Dulnig, that AIDS activist that died
a few years ago, showed me. Cyclodextrin, the one
that we need for steroid use, costs about $400 per
kilo, and you need about 10x the amount of cyclodextrin
as the steroid. So, if you want to do a kilo of
androstenedione or androstenediol you need 10 kilos
of cyclodextrin. That's an expense, so you're talking
about $4500. I had to do a couple of other supplement
projects suddenly so my money went there. Otherwise
I probably would have had it done by now.
MESO-Rx: What advantages would this have over
weekly injections of a testosterone ester?
Dan: A lot of the strength gains from
androstene is from the receptors in the nervous
system and the nasal spray will really hit those
nerves in the whole brain area pronto! The other
thing is most receptors in the body under the influence
of steady state amounts of hormones usually down-regulate
at some point. The beta-3 and beta-4 receptors probably
up-regulate under additional steady state of hormones.
But many others, like insulin receptors, and perhaps
at some point, steroid receptors down-regulate.
Testosterone in the body and growth hormone… all
the endocrine hormones, are pulsed into the bloodstream.
In studies of growth hormone, they have shown that
with 6-8 pulses IV a day, so that you have sudden
surges, sudden peaks, you have the greatest growth
response. So perhaps, doing this with nasal spray
steroids might be a great way of extending the anabolic
effect of the steroid. I have a feeling that
will turn out to be true.
MESO-Rx: Are "growth hormone releasing peptides"
the next big thing in sports nutrition?
Dan: Well, the only one I know of is going
to be a prescription drug. They found that the very
short peptide, di- and tri-, I think the growth
hormone releasing peptides of about 6-8 amino acids
long, not all of it makes it through digestion,
but a high percentage does so that you could do
it orally. As to whether you would see a natural
supplement, I don't think so. It would be a drug
and it would be regulated.
MESO-Rx: What supplement projects are you
currently working on?
Dan: There's an Indian herbal supplement
called Forskolin that increases cyclic
AMP in many organs that might be beneficial for
athletic performance. Of course, not everything
is good about it; there's bad things. Right now
I am just working out the kind of dosages needed
to get the best response. So, I guess, that is what
I am working on this year.
MESO-Rx: What recent research do you find
particularly interesting?
Dan: There's a whole bunch of new research.
Just this month they're predicting a beta-4 receptor
which has never been thought of before. It certainly
explains why these synthetic beta-3 agonists are
not working on humans for fat loss. So, maybe we
don't have beta-3 receptors but there's a chance
we have beta-4 receptors.
MESO-Rx: Before we wind up this interview,
can you give us your brief comments on several popular
drugs in the bodybuilding milieu?
Arimidex?
Dan: I think maybe only Michael Mooney
used it. It's six bucks a pill. I don't know anyone…it
doesn't seem to be very readily available yet or
in Mexico because I haven't seen it.
MESO-Rx: Piracetam?
Dan: Now Charles Poliquin works with a
lot of speed athletes where their performance depends
a lot on reaction time. Now he believes that past
a certain age, and he thinks that's 26 years old,
reaction time declines. He believes some of these
smart drugs help at improving reaction time. Of
course in bodybuilding and powerlifting, this is
not really necessary. I've never really looked at
any other smart drugs to see if there is some really
odd one that may raise testosterone or growth hormone
or lower estrogen.
MESO-Rx: Cytadren?
Dan: Cytadren, of all the anti-estrogens,
is the one that people should be using because it
really stops a lot of the conversion to estrogen
at low dosages. In recent research where they were
doing a conversion of androstenedione to testosterone,
the addition of Cytadren completely block
the conversion to estrone. As long as you can get
it, it's reasonably priced, but it's hard to come
by. You know, if it's not in Mexico, you don't see
it on the black market here very often.
MESO-Rx: IGF-1?
Dan: There is a lot of IGF-1 anabolic
action specifically in the muscle cells in response
to exercise. I wouldn't be surprised if people wised
up and put injections of IGF-1 directly in the body
part they are training. They would have more growth
out of it rather than trying to do it systemically.
MESO-Rx: Growth hormone?
Dan: Buy it cheap. It's no bargain at
20 bucks an I.U. It's a great buy at 10 bucks an
I.U. or less.
MESO-Rx: Clenbuterol?
Dan: There is a new one out of Mexico
that is kind of cheap…cheaper than the rest. You
know, that's another one we never figured out, why
is it the first time we ever used it, it worked
fabulously, but it never works that good again,
even if you go off it for years and then come back
to it, it doesn't work as well. I've never figured
that out.
MESO-Rx: Thank you for the valuable information
you shared with us today. But we know it is just
the tip of iceberg of your knowledge. What is the
status of your very informative Dirty Dieting Newsletter?
Dan: I am continuing it next year but
shifting it over to another company, Essentials,
Inc. I'm renaming the title and lowering the price;
I will have fewer writers and less columns, and
concentrate on one topic per issue, and go more
in depth. Dirty Dieting will probably be renamed,
'Living Lean and Large'. The 1998 subscription
will be $49.95 ($39.95 with photocopy of student
ID). Mesomorphosis readers can order it by calling
Essentials, Inc. at 500-367-4531.
Copyright © 1998
Dan Duchaine and Mesomorphosis. All rights reserved.
Any duplication of this document by electronic or
other means is strictly prohibited
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