Ask Patrick Arnold #13

Pat is responsible for launching several major product and innovation in the prohormone industry through LPJ Research and Ergopharm, including the first to release androstenedione, 1-AD, 6-OXO, 4-androstenediol, and 19-norandrostenediol. In addition, he is responsible for bringing innovative delivery systems to the prohormone market including HPB cyclodextrin, bioadhesive technology for sustained release, and sustained release sprays.

Publication Date: August 9, 1999

AST Research and Norandrodiol

Have you read the latest prohormone information at AST Research? Here's what they are saying:

What are your views on this Pat? I purchased some 19-Nordiol from Substrate Solutions and am having outstanding success with it. I'm having better workouts and good gains. I think AST is full of shit!

Well I tend to agree with you, however, I would probably use less harsh words. The 19-norandrostenediol that we (LPJ Research) manufacturers consistently tests out between 85-90% pure when compared to an analytical standard from Steraloids by HPLC. Certificates of Analysis from several different laboratories confirm that our product is indeed between 85-90% pure.

Our 19-norandrostenediol consists of a mixture of 3beta and 3alpha isomers in a ratio of around 6.5 : 1. The other impurities consist of a mixture of 5alpha and 5beta reduced 19-norandrostenediols. These impurities are identical to natural nortestosterone metabolites found in the body and are therefore harmless.

Testosterone/estrogen conversion

I was curious if there is a relationship between natural methods of the body to aromatase testosterone to estrogens and obesity. Is it possible that a person mildly to heavy obesity could be converting testosterone to estrogen instead of utilizing it to keep their metabolism at a high rate?

There is some literature that seems to indicate obese males convert more androgens to estrogens than non-obese males. However the percentage of total androgens that gets converted is still very small and should not directly affect the amount that is available for androgen receptor binding. Estrogens may decrease the bioavailable fraction of testosterone indirectly however by stimulating hepatic synthesis of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and by negative feedback of gonadotropin synthesis at the hypothalamus/pituitary

On a lighter note, is there a dione/diol supplement out there that contains chrysin (in good amount) and a DHT blocker? I know that large doses of testosterone cause a reduction in LH and FSH. can chrysin counteract this or is something else needed?

It appears chrysin does not work. A study using rats that took chrysin orally and by injection found no changes in estrogen levels.

Injectable Prohormones

It seems that, for a short time anyway, 'topical' prohormones may become available. How effective do you think these products will be? Also, they won't come with instructions, so what kind of dosing schedule would you recommend. Thanks.

I assume you are referring to those prohormone aqueous suspensions packaged in septum vials. They are marketed for use as "topical", but its pretty obvious from how these are packaged that the real intention here is for them to be used as an injectables.

These products are said to be sterile. If someone were to inject the stuff they would do so intramuscularly (not subcutaneously as some suggest). However we do not know how irritating and perhaps pyrogenic some of these compounds (or trace impurities) are so even though they may be sterile, they may still cause a painful swelling response and possibly a systemic immune response (characterized by fever, aches, chills, etc). In fact I hear that a couple of these products, the 5 diol ones I believe, have been causing pain at the injection site sometimes accompanied by the aforementioned systemic immune reaction.

I would stay away from using a needle with this stuff. If you were to use it you would probably have to use it daily (50mg or more per dose) or at the very least every other day. All those shots of what is essentially an unregulated pharmaceutical would have me feeling pretty uneasy.

DHT and Athletic Performance

Four athletes (three cyclists and one 100-meter sprinter) training at the Australian Institute of Sport tested positive to DHEA. The product was said to be Adractium Cream, a pharmaceutical from France. Why would these athletes take DHEA knowing that they are tested on a regular basis? What benefit were they trying to obtain by taking DHEA?

You probably mean that these athletes tested positive for DHT (dihydrotestosterone) not DHEA. Andractim is a hydroalcoholic gel based formula containing 2.5% DHT. DHT is a potent androgen, and while it is certainly not the best anabolic agent, it might have a decent CNS action. This would enable one to recover quicker as well as to perform more intensely.

Androdiol

I read your article in Testosterone magazine about androdiol. I purchased two bottles. Used it with Tribex and got some acne. have seen a couple of articles claiming that androdiol causes side affects such as bad acne and hair loss. What do you say about it?

These side effects are possible but quite rare.

What is with your new norandrodiol? Is it better than androdiol?

It is not necessarily more effective but it may cause less side effects than the androdiol.

I have seen a couple of articles on a new stack that includes a couple nors and a five that utilize different conversion enzymes. What do you think of that stack?

The 5-diols use the same enzyme as the 4-diols (3beta-HSD)to convert to active hormone. In contrast to the 4-diols though the 5-diols also require an isomerase enzyme (5,4-isomerase)to complete this conversion.

19-Nor question

I have a question regarding 19-Norandrodiol. I am taking Diol Stack, and just took an employment drug test. I passed, I am assuming this is because the assay probably was looking for drugs like cocaine, not nandrolone. Am I correct in this assumption?

Yes, no company that I have ever heard of tests for anabolic steroids

Also, Sports One has a new product called Medroid that supposedly has a secret compound to extent the half-life of pro-hormones, any idea what this could be or are you aware of any substances that do this?

No I am not aware of said compound. I would be suspicious of such claims unless ample evidence is provided

One more question, could one use prohormones plus DMSO to stimulate lagging muscle groups (in my case triceps)? Any advice on this?

No, you cannot cause localized muscle growth with steroids or steroid prohormones.

Growth Hormone and Insulin

I have been a competitive bodybuilder for the last five years. I'm 5 feet 9, 220 pounds and around 10% bodyfat. Right now I'm on a GH cycle and I was wondering how to use insulin and when is the best time to use it? I use 4IU of GH everyday with 750 mg of testosterone per week. Last time I did GH I used insulin (R one) right after my training with a shot of GH and 20 minutes later I had my post-training shake. What do you think of that?

The key to taking insulin with GH is to make sure both compounds reach their peak concentrations at roughly the same time. I read recently that a subcutaneous shot of GH takes approximately 4-5 hours until peak blood levels are reached. Therefore it would make sense to take the GH at the same time as the insulin as you had been doing.

BTW I also discovered that the issue of GH breaking down quickly after reconstitution has been greatly misinterpreted. GH will break down pretty quickly into a compound that still maintains the full biological activity. So even though the GH may technically be out of date soon after reconstitution, in reality it probably can remain effective for a month or more as long as it is kept refrigerated.

Andro 6 Really Does Suck

This is the first time I discovered your website and have read numerous references to your slashing of andro-6. Every time there is a reference to that article I click on it to find that there is nothing at the site. Did you yank it off the web?

I do not know what has happened to the info on Andro-6 that I wrote a while back. I don't think it really matters at this point however because even EAS has discovered that Andro-6 does not work. In fact, I don't think andro-6 is even manufactured anymore.

[Editor's note: "Why Andro 6 = Zero" can be found at http://www.qfac.com/  For more information on the EAS sponsored studies on Andro 6, read Bryan Haycock's Special Update on Androstenedione!]

DHEA and Andro

Charles Staley from ISSA referred me to you because I have a question concerning DHEA and androstenedione. I ran across a statement where it stated that androstenedione was a metabolite of DHEA. Does that mean if I were to supplement with DHEA a by-product during the metabolic process would be androstenedione?

DHEA can convert to testosterone via two compounds. It can convert to 5-androstenediol which can then convert to testosterone or it can convert to androstenedione which also can convert to testosterone. However, the overall conversions from both of these pathways are very small so DHEA is not a good choice as a testosterone prohormone.

Weight Loss Problems

I have discovered a new steroid prohormone product that may benefit obese people such as yourself. In a clinical study using this product obese subjects lost an average of 5% of their original bodyfat content. That equates to a mean weight loss of 2.8 kilos of fat over a ten week period. Three of the obese subjects had strikingly greater fat loss, about 18%, 19%, and 25% of initial bodyfat content. There were no subjective or objective side effects.

This compound appears to do everything DHEA was supposed to do and then some. For instance it also increases the hemoglobin content of the blood.

I hope to introduce this to the market within the next 4 - 6 months. The product is patent protected so I will probably have to license the patent before I sell it.

It appears to work quite well in obese subjects, however I do not know how well it will work in non-obese individuals.

7-Keto Products

I enjoy reading your answers! I was wondering about the 7-keto products - if they work, how they work, how much to take and when to take it. Thanks in advance for your help!

7-keto DHEA is supposed to aid in fat loss and immune enhancement. However all the studies I know of are in animals, rats mostly. Whether it works well in humans or not is still anyone's guess.

High Dose Prohormones

What is your opinion of high dose (as in 1 - 2 grams a day) of prohormone use. I am thinking of using nordiol starting at 2 grams a day and tapering down over the course of 6-8 weeks. I believe you have said more is better, but is there a point of diminishing returns?

More definitely seems to be better for prohormones, however, we do not know at what point side effects become too problematic.

Higher dosages appear to overwhelm the liver first pass degradation and results in less prohormone being deactivated.

You will also see a much greater shutdown of your own testosterone biosynthesis using higher dosages of prohormones.

If you are looking for a REAL study on Tribex

Go read the article you helped write on the T-mag site. Tribex works or Patterson wouldn’t sell it.

Interesting logic. I suppose then that HMB must work or Bill Phillips wouldn't sell it either.

Gee, and Tim Patterson seems like such an objective source concerning supplements. Not. You may find it interesting that this man used to bug me non-stop about giving him my research secrets so that he could formulate his own prohormone line and rule the industry. When he realized he could not step on in and be the king of prohormones he switched positions and became the spoiler of the industry. Now every other word out of his mouth is androstenedione sucks, gyno this and that. Not only that, but he completely fabricates a story that 3alpha,17beta diols are toxic and for a couple of weeks ruins my diol sales. The venom this guy spews is downright scary. What is even more downright scary is that folks like you will follow this guy right to the slaughter.

I don't know if Tribex works or not. I DO know that androdiol raises testosterone levels and this was confirmed by a simple objective university clinical study. I wonder then, why has tribulus terrestris or any products containing it have never ever been tested objectively? Why do I keep hearing of these informal test results but never any peer reviewed studies? They are not expensive to do. For chrissake am I asking too much here?